“The frequency of shop has increased, but basket spend has decreased. So how do we make our brands stand out more?”

It’s a conundrum being faced by just about every FMCG brand and finding the right solution is top of many marketers’ minds.

In this episode of The Persuasion Game podcast, we’re turning to Sarah Dossett, European Portfolio Director at Mars, to see if we can find some answers.

Sarah has years of experience working with brands such as Mars, Danone and Britvic, alongside retailers to win over shoppers.

We discuss the impact of a changing shopper landscape, how the brand-retailer relationship is evolving, and why it’s increasingly crucial to build authentic emotional engagement with your brand.

Episodes are released bi-weekly. Follow us on LinkedIn for updates.

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Want to know more about us? Visit our website here: thisistheforge.com

This is an 18Sixty production for The Forge.

CHAPTERS:

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Introduction

(04:22) Challenges and Strategies in Shopper Marketing

(11:36) The Importance of Emotional Engagement

(14:58) Category Management and Seasonal Strategies

(22:02) Brand Experiences and Personalisation

The Persuasion Game is available on all your favourite podcast apps: https://link.chtbl.com/PersuasionGame

Episode transcript:

How to win in shopper marketing, with Sarah Dossett, Mars

Sarah: The frequency of shop has increased, but basket spend decreased. So how do we then make our brands stand out more?

Laura: Hey Adam, how are you?

Adam: I’m brilliant, thank you. I’ve just returned from a wonderful two weeks away.

Laura: Excellent news. And were you free from the constraints of shopping and thinking of all of those everyday chores that you have to do?

Adam: Well, I was in rural Wales where there are very limited shops, so yeah, it was, it was a very kinda stress-free part of my life.

Laura: Just a ploughman’s and a simple, simple ale at the end of the day.

Adam: Yeah. And the shepherd set. Yeah.

Laura: Very nice. Very nice.

Well, today we’re gonna be throwing you back into the world of retail with a bang. We are thinking about winning retailer shopping strategies. As we look to the end of the year, everyone’s going to be thinking about hitting targets.

People are going to be thinking about how to make sure that their brand is having the most impact at shelf. And of course, as much as we can talk about propositions and innovation, none of it really matters unless people are actually buying it in stores. And what we’ve seen is increasingly there needs to be a strategy where retailers are winning as much as the brands themselves, because suddenly everyone can get everything everywhere, all at once.

Adam: Yeah. I think that’s so interesting, isn’t it? Where the power was traditionally held by the retailers who had the shelf space and had the aisles, which consumers would walk down. But now actually it’s more about a partnership model, isn’t it?

Laura: A hundred percent. And actually one of the interesting things someone pointed out to me about AI is that disjunct between like the retailer and the consumer is only going to grow because as people sort of google for things, actually the options that they’re being presented with are not necessarily being curated by a store. And that comes with risks for the shopper as much as risks for the retailer. So finding ways to actually persuade people to choose stores and choose brands within them. It really does have to be a win-win collective effort,

Adam: And we’re extremely lucky to have someone perfect to talk to us about this, aren’t we?

Sarah Dossett, who is the European portfolio director for Mars, she looks after the confectionary brands. Previously she was the VP of marketing at Danone. Prior to that, she worked at Britvic. So a very varied career. Looking at the world of FMCG, working with retailers, and she’s gonna be sharing her strategies for success in how to win in shopper marketing.

Laura: Yeah. What I love about Sarah is she’s got that top line, you know, big picture view about things like sustainability, where she’s launched sustainability initiatives. She’s also done a lot of master brand work, but she also has done a lot of work at global, local, and regional levels. So she really understands how to sort of think big and then think in detail as well, so it’ll be great to hear her point of view.

Well, you’re not gonna believe it, but we are talking birthdays again, and this time it’s our own. We are one!

Adam: We are one. Happy birthday, Laura. We are one. We’ve managed to get the podcast, what, 26 episodes, is that right?

Laura: We are self-feeding, we’re self-soothing.

Adam: Drive through the night

Laura: A lot of the time.

Adam: And we’ve got a request, which is, if you’d like to come on the show, because you work in marketing or insight or strategy and you’ve got an interesting point of view or perspective on something you know really well, we’d love to hear from you,

Laura: And thank you so much for everyone that has been listening and suggesting ideas. We couldn’t do it without you.

Adam: Well, welcome Sarah. We are so thrilled to have you today.

Sarah: Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Adam: Before we get going, could you just share a little bit about your current role and the remit you have?

And kind of maybe a potted history of how you got to where you are today.

Sarah: Yeah, so I’m currently at Mars, so I joined Mars last September actually. I work in the regional European team in Mars snacking, and I look after anything that isn’t a bar in the chocolate category, so we call it bite-size. So things like M&Ms, Maltesers, Revels in the UK for any UK fans.

Laura: Classic!

Sarah: Galaxy. And then I also look after the fruity confectionery, so things like Skittles.

Adam: Oh, Skittles!

Sarah: Starburst. Really UK only. And then seasons and gifting, so all the Easter eggs, advent calendars. Again, which is largely UK driven.

Laura: I think this would be my son’s dream job.

Adam: Yeah. How do you have the willpower?

Sarah: I did forget. I meant to pick up some goodies for you.

Laura: I’ll never tell him. He’ll never forgive me.

Adam: So we’re going to be talking about the shopper today and how the shopping landscape or the shopper landscape is changing. In your current role, have you seen many changes that are going on when your partnerships with retailers and how you get your brands in front of shoppers?

Sarah: Yeah, I think there was a stat of about five years ago, the number of choices we had then compared to the number of choices we had now, not just because of the omnichannel, but because of innovation, is just humongous. So from a shopper point of view, I know, and I’m like, my life is much easier because I just do online shopping the whole time.

But then when I do go into shops, where do you start? So first of all, it’s the choice that faces consumers and shoppers every day has significantly increased. And I think obviously the way we shop has significantly changed the way that we buy certain things or compare prices. So for sure, and COVID only accelerated that with omnichannel.

Adam: Yeah, there’s been a lot of shifting in behavior, hasn’t it? I mean, some of the more well-documented stuff that we hear about in the UK is the kinda, the big monthly shop, there’s a bit more about the top-up shop now.

Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: Going into discounters rather than going into the bigger retailers. How does that impact the way you think about marketing to shoppers?

Sarah: Definitely from a snacking point of view, but actually overall market context, the frequency of shop has increased, but basket spend decreased. So thinking about, well, how do we then make our brands stand out more? So promotional strategies, should they be more frequent, but then lower depth because you might not be able to afford all the time, the deep discounts that you can get?

But then the retailer strategies, you can get a better display if you have a deeper depth of promotion. So it’s really about finding the right balance of how do you get your brand to stand out off shelf, but also on shelf because you want to stand out in the times when shoppers are going in and when you might not be on your deep discount promotion.

Laura: And of course the government initiatives are kind of forcing that agenda aren’t they?

Sarah: Yes totally.

Laura: It’s accelerating what was already there and in people’s minds as sort of CSR initiatives.

Sarah: Yes.

Laura: But your hand might suddenly be forced sooner than you expect.

Sarah: Totally.

Laura: And it’s, you know, it’s about sort of being on the front foot at a really rapid pace of change.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Adam: I mean, you’ve been doing this type of role for a few years now. Would you say it’s trending towards becoming more difficult for brands then to kind of get that cut through or it is just different?

Sarah: Yeah, I think it is more difficult to stand out because of the number of choices you’ve got, because of the CSR challenges that retailers have. So creating category ‘retailtainment’ I think some retailers will call it, making it easier for shoppers to shop and to choose the brands that they want.

For sure, we’ve seen significant category growth. I use my time back when I was in Danone, actually in the dairy category, I mean 10 years ago, the dairy category was so hard to shop. There were no benefits coming across. There were no taste cues coming across. It was like a sea of whites. And actually over the years, and something that we had done from a health point of view with Danone on is help shoppers navigate the fixture by communicating the health benefits. Whether that’s probiotics, whether that’s protein, whether that’s simply just tasty, enjoyable yoghurts. And you see significant uplifts, I think in a few studies that have been published by retailers you see like 40% uplift at a total category level, and then brands will see an uplift within that.

So making it just easier at fixture to shop and for shoppers and before they even get into the store as well, online.

Laura: We talk a lot about categories, conflating and kind of stealing value from other categories as a way to drive growth. But the paradox of that is sometimes it’s actually quite hard to know what product is what, because you know, if you look at wild deodorant, for example, is that a fragrance offering or is a deodorant offering?

Sarah: Yes that’s true.

Laura: And to your point, sometimes you can then say, well, what are you actually buying? Are you buying a pint of milk or are you buying a probiotic benefit or?

Sarah: Yes, yes.

Laura: Helping people actually navigate that and perhaps going in from a more benefit led perspective is really important in this sort of face of a huge amount of overwhelm and so much choice.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

And certainly during inflationary times, what are you giving shoppers? Because they’re having to spend.

Laura: Tough choices.

Sarah: Yeah. A significant amount. Or they can choose private label, which is always going to be cheaper. So for brands, it’s about really communicating what benefits do the shoppers want?

Is it a health benefit? Is that a functional benefit? Or in other categories, is it simply an emotional benefit that they want? So really trying to understand within that shopper decision hierarchy at fixture, what is it that they they want.

Laura: And that’s kind of what we’re gonna focus on today, isn’t it? That sort of combination of the wins for shopper and for for brand.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: I was in brand side like 20 years ago and probably very green about it as well, but I remember a slightly adversarial relationship where, you know, it was about winning the retailer over to your way of thinking. And it feels now that there’s a lot more combined strategy.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: Win-wins, you know, and really helping win over the shopper because as you say, they have the choice to go to so many other channels, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: Actually, is that persuading people to visit the store as much as it is to then  buy the brands within it?

Sarah: And I think as a retailer, from various discussions with retailers over the last few years, they have to make the space that they’ve got work as hard as possible, and they’re fighting for other buyers in different categories.

So if you can work with the retailer to make that space work as hard as possible, then it works for everyone.

Laura: In the spirit of this kind of winning together, thinking about growing footfall, growing share of wallet, fighting for that space, what is that shared goal? What do you see as the challenge ahead?

Sarah: We call it like a quad win. So is it working for the retailer from a category point? Are you driving category growth? Are you then bringing shoppers into their store? So driving category growth, but are they coming into their store versus somebody else? Are you working together on both of your sustainability agendas?

We know that retailers, as do big manufacturers, have carbon goals, and are you, jointly, delivering against that with all other elements behind that. And then obviously from a manufacturer’s side, is it delivering from their business as well?

So we call it a quad win. It’s evolved over the years from a triple win to a quad win with sustainability now being a key part of that.

Laura: Yes. So entrenched.

Adam: Can you think of some examples there of where those quad wins really come to life?

Sarah: Yeah. Actually the example I gave of the how can you really drive the health benefits of yoghurt in fixture, the critical thing there, working with the retailer’s like, okay, if we can signal the health benefits of yoghurt, we know that that grows the brand and it grows the category.

In addition to that, if manufacturers that are driving their sustainability agenda with carbon, so Danone had Alpro plant-based yoghurt, if you can give more space in-fixture, with the growing trend of plant-based, in turn, you can bring down the carbon impact of the total dairy category by listing them together.

And we showed shopper data that showed shoppers are buying both dairy and plant-based. So by bringing them together, you could really start to build a more sustainable vision for everyone.

Laura: You mentioned this idea of a more emotional relationship with shopping. So I think the stereotype perhaps once was, you know, you sort of attract a consumer with a brand and then as a shopper you have to sort of plate all of the logical cues to actually persuade it to go in the basket.

But it seems like actually what you’re tapping into is something a bit more emotive when people are actually at shelf.

Sarah: My view, and I think it’s the view of Byron Sharp and Ehrenberg-Bass, is knowing your category entry points is key to understanding how your brands can then show up in those category entry points and therefore drive the category.

In the world of chocolates today, there are two big category entry moments, Christmas and Easter, which for consumers and shoppers is often some of the first moments where they’ve tried the different chocolate, and it’s also a permissible time to just enjoy or indulge in chocolate. So if you don’t drive penetration at those moments in the year, it’s really hard to drive trial of your brands because the rest of the year, quite rightly, permissibility is not necessarily there.

So if you can really build that emotional engagement at those times in the year, you continue to recruit your light buyers, which we know in term will drive category growth.

Laura: That’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because it also taps into those kind of macro trends we’ve seen even outside of commerce. The importance of spending time together and making moments count. Having things that can be shared, trying like accessible little luxuries, but actually then saying, right, how do we link that to CPs and really make that sort of amplified so we’ve got an emotional wrapper on these sort of technically proven entry points is really interesting.

Sarah: Yeah absolutely.

And actually, Maltesers , in the UK has got such strong affinity and brand love, and you ask consumers, well, when did you first try Maltesers? And it was the Maltesers box at Christmas. And so many consumers will say, oh yeah, I just remember, I’d always have that in my stocking in the UK. Or I’d always have that as a separate gift from my granny.

Adam: For us it was, it was Terry’s Chocolate Orange.

Sarah: It was Terry’s Chocolate Orange. Yeah.

And it’s those moments and then you continue to have that attachment throughout.

Adam: We see it so often with clients how seasonal and gifting is thought of as a kind of different category almost within the business.

Different people in charge of it, different people running it, different objectives. But what you are talking about here is actually, it’s a fundamental category entry point to a specific occasion, which is really important in driving growth.

Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if brands can unlock their core in those seasons, then from a category point of view and a retailer point of view, the uplifts should be so much higher.

And I come with a waters background. Having worked on Evian and Danone, we didn’t innovate. Summer was the season, and you didn’t innovate for different packaging. You didn’t cause complexity into the retail environment. It was about getting your core in the season, to get the key category entry moment.

And I think coming into chocolate where there is a whole aisle of Easter eggs, advent calendars which is from a ritual point of view tapping into the emotion of the different seasons – but how can you also play core within there as well as one of the key challenges that I’ve been giving my team and how do you make it relevant?

Adam: So I think one of the interesting things you were talking about before we came on air was your time in Danone bringing together different categories to create combined value with the retailer.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: At Mars, you’ve obviously got a big chocolate portfolio, but you were able at Danone to kind of explore the different categories that they…I mean, how does that come together then when you’re trying to bring together, you know, dairy with waters to create that value?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Again, going back to what drives maximum penetration, it’s getting that where you can. There’s obviously categories where we can’t do it anymore because of regulatory challenges, but where you still can get that off shelf, off fixture visibility, if you can get the visibility and the promotion, then we’ll get the best uplifts, both from a manufacturer and a retailer point of view.

But the space that retailers have is becoming less and less. So how can you make that space work harder for everyone? And actually for Danone, looking at key moments throughout the year, health being a big event now in retailers calendars in January, post-Christmas, how can we be healthy and actually tapping into waters, to dairy, to plant-based, and creating a health event in partnership with retailers starts to then drive that relevance in store, which then helps drive the sales in store as well. And you can create that occasion based element on the islands or an additional display that you might get for retailers.

Laura: It’s interesting though, isn’t it, the idea that it’s a health event? It is actually in its way very, very consumer centric. It’s not the brand broadcasting, you know?

Sarah: No.

Laura: A hundred years of…. It is very much like, what are you looking for at this moment in the season or your life? And how can we amplify through a benefit that we offer.

Sarah: Yeah, totally.

Adam: What is the role of the category captain in this, in creating or pushing these agendas or trying to find these shared value opportunities?

Sarah: Quite a lot of the time, if you’re a category captain, you’ll have the data, you’ll have the insights, so you can work with the retailer. Okay, these are the category entry moments. What are we doing to drive visibility of the category here? To drive the added value of the category, ultimately to drive that incremental purchase of the shoppers that are going into a, in the UK, a Tesco’s or a Morrisons.

Laura: Do you ever find any surprising overlaps, like, oh, people who are buying this also are entering a category for something different? I’m just wondering if sometimes there’s some unobvious marriages.

Sarah: Yeah. The one insight that for us when we started to look after plant-based actually in Danone, when Danone acquired Alpro, was Activia shoppers actually had a big overindex in plant-based.

Laura: That is interesting.

Sarah: But then you can link it back and going further into the health benefits of gut health.

Laura: Gut health.

Sarah: So then you can go one step deeper. So there were some gut health events in some retailers who wanted to go even further into health.

There were health events in other retailers that just wanted to do an overall. But from a targeting point of view, you could then start to look at not just in-store activation, but innovation as well.

Could you move into hybrid opportunities of half plant-based half dairy?

Laura: Yes.

Sarah: Because one of the concerns of plant based is that it doesn’t taste great.

So if you can have a half of dairy and half of plant-based, could that be a future innovation? So, and as a category captain sharing these insights with the retailers you can start to see how you can then add value.

Laura: Yes. That is fascinating, isn’t it? Because you’re being open to what the data is presenting rather than going, oh, well these are people that are vegan or vegetarian.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: And that is why they’re buying into it. So actually really look at it holistically and go, what might drive that choice underneath?

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: All of the surface data. And I suppose it also gives a really interesting opportunity to rejuvenate some brands.

Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah.

Laura: Like Symprove brand. It’s suddenly everywhere, right?

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura: As this sort of having been this sort of really remedial feeling product, it’s suddenly got like a lot of a life of its own.

Sarah: Totally. Yeah. Even Activia. Activia has been around for years and was like seen as your, and still is, it’s on a journey, but seen as like the yoghurt that my mum or my kids’ grandma eats. And looking back through comms, you can see why. But actually the relevancy of the brand today with probiotics, with prebiotics, when you start to then talk about that, you can start to reinvent the brand as well.

Adam: And it’s almost like the perfect moment for that brand now, isn’t it? They were what 10 years, 15 years ahead of the time?

Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

Laura: So thinking about that as a lens, we, as you said, have a lot of local jewels. We really love our chocolate in the UK. We have our favourites. And I can imagine it must be sometimes quite difficult to let go of some of that heritage, about what the brand is for and really think about it from sort of category perspective.

How do you reconcile that? Because you are dealing with 56 versions of that every day.

Sarah: Yeah. Totally. And actually as a regional team, our job is to see if we can scale what works in one country to seeing if that could work in another. And I think going back to occasions, one of the occasions that these brands are consumed, M&MS for instance, it grew up and it got authenticity.

Consumers know and they love it for screen time. So whether it’s in the cinema, eating in the cinema, because it can melt in your mouth and not in your hands. Really targeting that sharing screen time moment, screen time’s evolved. How does the M&Ms brand evolve to remain relevant in that occasion, allows us to then drive that position in the market. And also at Christmas, why couldn’t we be famous for Christmas movies? And how do you then look at the different screen time favourites throughout the other markets? There might be some other rituals that you could tap into. It doesn’t have to be a Christmas novelty.

Laura: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s about how the core brands can show up by really understanding the occasions that they’re relevant for. Or Maltesers is when you’re trying to plan your Christmas shop and it’s that moment that night in with your girlfriend and you can start to own that. It’s whatever is authentic that the brand can own, but you can start to seed in that occasion it doesn’t have to be a different format per se.

Laura: You’ve just blown my mind, because I think I now know why the M&M store is in Leicester Square. I’ve never joined the dots before. That’s amazing. And it always has a cue because people love the experience of it, right?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.

Laura: They love the ritual of choosing it and probably then going off to the movies and enjoying.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: Wow!

Adam: I think you mentioned last time we spoke, you know, it crossed your mind as to if Snickers can play in the football world.

Sarah: Yes.

Adam: Why can’t M&Ms not with, you know, different colours for different teams?

Sarah: Absolutely.

Adam: Is that something you’ve explored then, or?

Sarah: Well actually, in Germany we used to have some M&Ms the colour of the German flag, and they used to play it every year whenever Germany were playing football.

Actually, it’s something that we would love to bring back because that’s the beauty of the, of M&Ms. It’s got the coloured lentils. That’s what adds the fun. It’s an ownable, distinctive asset. And we could play that a lot more.

Adam: And fits with the screen time occasion.

Sarah: And fits with the screen time occasion.

Adam: Very nice.

Laura: It’s interesting what you’re talking about, these kind of moments with momentum and emotional energy and something that everyone can share.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: We’ve spoken to Nick Manning before about how hard it is to create that sense of emotion with brands. So, you know, in a media and landscape where everything’s kind of flattened and there’s such an omnichannel presence, can we talk a bit more about your thoughts on brand experiences and how you can make people feel something?

Because that’s where the big brands often still shine, isn’t it?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. It was at Cannes as well. Experience came up as one of the biggest drivers of brand love. Evian is a great brand to reference, link to experience. If you look across the world, there are some famous…We would always do the baby’s advertising, et cetera, but it was about linking the brand to an experience to create the live young attitude that the brand has. So whether that’s Wimbledon in the UK, whether that was the US Open, it was about partnering with the right partners or platforms that consumers could experience and live what the brand really stands for.

So I think Evian is very good at doing that and then creates the partnership with ambassadors who then can live the experience for others to see as well.

M&M store, you referenced, is a great opportunity to experience the M&Ms.

Laura: Like a ritual.

Sarah: You can personalise your M&Ms. It’s full of the different colour lentils around the store and so much merchandise. I still can’t get over how consumers will buy M&M kitchen utensils, but they are there and they sell in the M&M store.

But how you can then create that emotional attachment with consumers. That experience then just drives that loyalty and the brand love, which we know makes brands worth paying more for.

Laura: You are right about personalisation as well, aren’t you? It seems to be such a sort of potent driver for preference, whether you see that in the Coke strategy for sharing a moment, or even in D2C products often come with your name, sort of personalised on the product and there is that sense of sort of specialness or kind of amplifying the every day that’s really powerful.

Sarah: Yeah absolutely, and it’s still, my kids when I first joined Mars last year we had a conference in Berlin and we just opened the Berlin M&M store and I came back with M&Ms with their names on it, and it was like the best thing that they have ever seen, and it’s still, whenever I go and pick them up from school, their friends are like, can we have some M&Ms? With our names on?

Laura: You are the coolest mum in school. That is brilliant. But of course, it can also be sort of some of the more old fashioned touch points that we’ve seen, effective sampling campaigns within retailers. I know Cathedral City actually had a brilliant one to just drive that sense of affection and taste.

Sarah: I think I referenced earlier that we are faced with so many choices now and you kind of just forget how brands taste. Actually, one of the things, again when I first started at Mars, I hadn’t tasted a peanut M&M for years.

Adam: They’re my favourites.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. But I tasted one and I was like these are so good, and sometimes we just have to remind consumers how good they taste.

So sampling for sure, I think is critical, whether that’s through online sampling, through in-store sampling, just to keep nudging…

Laura:  Yes. Yes.

Sarah: …consumers and shoppers on.

Laura: Even if it’s not the most innovative thing, even if it’s the core cheddar, like something that tastes great.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: How can you kinda amplify excitement more?

Sarah: And give them inspiration!

I think the Cathedral City one, they made cheese toasties. And I think creating that old school memory of how good a cheese toasty tastes, and we forget sometimes how good that tastes. If they can connect that delicious taste moment with Cathedral City. I think it’s just creating the brand love and brand affinity that Cathedral City were looking for and obviously show in the sales.

Laura: That’s a good reminder, isn’t it? Like just because you’re the captain doesn’t mean you always have to be championing the thing that’s new. You shore up the base as well.

Sarah: And we always forget. The first driver of purchase in food is taste. So just reminding consumers and shoppers this tastes good is number one.

Laura: We’ve had a number of briefs recently where it’s like, what is the say do gap between, you know, why do shoppers say that they really care about this thing and they actually, they do something different? And I think sometimes it is as simple as they do want…

Adam: They forgot!

Sarah: Yes, yes.

Laura: Or they do want, they do want the healthy thing, but it doesn’t taste very good.

Sarah: Yes, totally.

Laura: So they’re going to go back to the core drivers after all.

Sarah: Which was actually number one barrier of plant-based. Like just doesn’t taste good. And then getting consumers to taste it. And actually once they taste it a few times they just got used to the flavor as well.

Adam: Yeah. And just different applications as well.

I know that my own personal sort of journey with plant-based I think Oatley tastes great in a coffee.

Sarah: In a coffee. Absolutely.

Adam: Not in tea.

Laura: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: And I probably wouldn’t eat the cheese, you know, like there’s certain things you go to and certain things you won’t. So that sampling can really help with like just showing those like pairings that work really well.

Sarah: Totally and actually Oatley are a great example of that because they paired with baristas and coffee chains.

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: And they got that great pairing that highlighted the taste. Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

If you were encouraging someone else coming in to look, perhaps from a brand to a category lens, what are some of the things you would give them as a recommendation to do?

What are some of the mindset things or some of the practical things that they might do to think differently?

Sarah: I think know your category entry points. What are the key drivers? The key drivers and key barriers? And then understand, okay, where are your brands sitting? Is there something you can authentically own in the drivers or overcome in the barriers that sits differently versus the other brands? Because in turn, you can then create that added value that will drive the brand, but also the category, and also help you sell that into the retailer.

Laura: I love that.

Adam: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming in today. I’ve absolutely loved this conversation. I’m sure our listeners will too.

Sarah: Thank you.

Laura: Thank you so much, Sarah.

Sarah:Thanks for having me.

Adam: Well, Laura, that was excellent. I really enjoyed having Sarah on. How about you?

Laura: Yeah, me too. And it’s really timely actually, because I feel like this year has been a year where I’ve seen a lot of briefs talking about direct to consumer models being serious competitors and actually that need to create experiences that retailers feel like they’re winning in, as well as brands, is something that has been talked about a lot.

Plus this idea of, you know, shared experiences, people enjoying being together, people enjoying, like having community experiences feels really interesting too.

Adam: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this retailer question keeps coming up, doesn’t it? I think we should have someone from a retailer come on to the podcast to be honest.

Laura: We should.

Adam: And actually, Dan who came on the podcast to talk about innovation a few months back from The Forge, he was writing quite a lot about the way that retailers are leading the innovation agenda now.

So previously, the way we think about retailer brands is that they’re the followers, they’re following what brands are doing, but actually he was articulating this idea that they’re actually almost leading the conversation now. There’s lots of things coming out of like M&S and Waitrose and Sainsbury’s and Tesco that are pushing categories forward and doing things slightly differently.

His question was to brands and saying, well, how are you going to reply to this? And we can share a link to some of those articles in the comments.

Laura: Fantastic. Well see you next time.

Adam: Yeah. See you next time. Laura.