The tables have been turned in this episode of The Persuasion Games podcast, as Adam and Laura get a taste of their own medicine in the hot seat.

Izzie MacDonald, Global Cultural Insights Capability Lead at PepsiCo, takes on the role of host.

Izzie has years of research and insights experience at Touchstone Partners and with almost a decade under her belt at Pepsi.

Adam and Laura give their views on where marketing, strategy and insights might be heading in 2026, and the adaptations that will be needed to get us there.

They also reveal their New Year resolutions, both professional and personal, for the year ahead.

Episodes are released bi-weekly. Follow us on LinkedIn for updates.

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Want to know more about us? Visit our website here: thisistheforge.com

This is an 18Sixty production for The Forge.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) Introduction

(02:08) Career Journeys in Marketing and Strategy

(09:27) The Future of Agency Models

(15:48) The Role of AI in Innovation

(23:26) Importance of Context in Client Partnerships

Episode transcript:

Izzie: I guess on a personal note, any New Year’s resolutions that you can share?

Adam: I think it’s gonna be all about, systematically going through what we are doing in marketing and creating an AI powered marketing function.

Laura: Yeah.

Adam: Not just for the benefit of The Forge. I think it’s a transferrable skill that, will take me to all sorts of directions in my life.

Laura: I did pretty well with Peloton in the first six months of the year.

Izzie: I knew it was gonna be about Peloton.

Izzie: Welcome to the Persuasion Game, The Forge’s podcast all about persuading consumers and growing brands in the modern age. As many of you have become accustomed to each episode, you hear The Forge interview industry leaders about how they use persuasion to influence their consumers and convince their stakeholders to drive their business forward.

Izzie: But. The tables have turned. My name is Izzie McDonald and today I have the pleasure of interviewing The Forge. For those of you who I haven’t met, I am part of the Global Insights team at PepsiCo, and I head up our human and culture capabilities in service of brand building, and I have had the pleasure of working with The Forge for a number of years.

Izzie: Over 2025, every other week. The Forge has brought us thought provoking and inspiring podcasts. So we thought what better way to start the new year than to take the opportunity to hear from the team directly on some of their reflections from last year, but also some of those questions that they’ve been thinking about as they prepare for 2026.

Izzie: So welcome Adam. Welcome Laura.

Laura: Thank you.

Adam: That was brilliant, Izzie. I love it. So good.

Izzie: How does it feel being in the hot seat?

Adam: Very, very hot.

Laura: Bad.

Izzie: So before I jump into some of the slightly more juicy marketing and strategy questions that I have. I first of all wanted to give the listeners a little bit of an opportunity just to get to know you a little bit better. I mean, we do work in insights after all. So who are those people behind the mics?

Izzie: So I guess to get us started, I’d love to hear why you wanted to get into insights and strategy and what attracted you to the agency world.

Laura: Oh, okay. I’ll jump in. So I grew up with a dad and a stepdad who both worked in advertising. And the one bit of advice they said to me was, don’t go into advertising.

Laura: So, of course, my one act of rebellion was, maybe I will, but actually, I’m really interested in contexts. It was a big part of my degree. What’s the context for how people feel, for how people behave? And for me, I just thought brands were a really interesting  microcosm of what people care about.

Laura: And often that’s informed by the culture or their values or where they are in their lives. So it wasn’t so much advertising so much as brands. And I started my career at Unilever, which I think was an unbelievable training in all the aspects of brand. I absolutely loved it, but, I very soon realised that I was a specialist rather than a generalist.

Laura: I think one of my managers quite kindly pointed that out to me. So I went over into planning when I was about 26, and I’ve just loved it ever since.

Izzie: Love it. So started off as rebellion, but then…

Laura: Chasing conformism – story of my life.

Adam: And what advice would you give your children, would you tell them to go into branding and marketing?

Laura: It really bothers me how much I’m gonna echo my parents’ advice.

Izzie: And how about you, Adam?

Adam:. So similar to Laura, my dad also worked in marketing. More on the B2B side, and he worked for himself. And I’d say it probably is that bit of B2B marketing, which crosses into sales.

Adam: So it’s in my blood somewhere to be in this world. However, I don’t think it’s strictly true to say that he  led me into it. I chose marketing as a degree mainly to keep my options open rather than to specialise in marketing, it gives you a route into business.

Adam: And I, first, straight out of uni got a sales job, which I was okay at, but I just didn’t really have the stamina to continue it as a career. It required quite a lot of like one dimensional doing the same thing over and over. And I had an agency come in to actually buy some of the market research that we were selling.

Adam: And it just sounded like a really cool, interesting world that I didn’t really understand. And when I found out more about what they were doing, there was a – it was a brand strategy agency – I thought I just need to go and get involved in that world. And I got myself a job at a brand strategy company and  took a business development role there and went from there.

Adam: So, yeah. It was a roundabout way to get there, but yeah, it’s such an interesting place. Lots of change every day. Lots of variety, which keeps my ADHD brain ticking over well.

Izzie: And is there anything you wish you had known now? You know, being in the industry for such a long period of time.

Laura: I mean, again, I would say I should have known this because if you have parents in advertising in the nineties, this was not unexpected.

Laura: But it is turbulent, I think in marketing you are at the vanguard of a lot of stuff. You feel things first. You feel it financially. So, I was working through the financial crisis and that’s obviously the first thing to go for a lot of brands. So that chopping and changing, but also I think you are at the front end of a lot of stuff that is coming in, whether that’s AI, or whether that’s sustainability, these big  macro forces. Often they’re landing on your desk before anyone else. And honestly, I love that about our job too. But it can also sometimes make it feel like a bit of a rollercoaster rather than a steamboat.

Izzie: Keeps us on our toes.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. We’re never bored. We’re never bored.

Adam: Yeah. I think for me, I mean, there’s nothing really that has surprised me that I think is overwhelmingly negative and has scared me off.

Adam: However, I probably didn’t consider just quite how much you have to make your own career.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: You’re not gonna have a career, especially in the agency world, you’re not gonna have a career laid out for you. You’ve gotta find ways to add value and do more. You’re  always making little bets as you go, as to, maybe this’ll be a thing that the agency will need more of in the future.

Adam: One day we’ll find that. One day.

Laura: We’ll, we’re gonna keep looking.

Adam: Yeah. You have no idea how many failed experiments there were before this podcast.

Izzie: Okay. And so thinking more along those lines. Think about the last year and the year ahead. Anything that you would  stop, start, continue, based on all of the  lived experience and hindsight that you have.

Adam: So I think I’m gonna stop some of the things I do. I think when you work in business development in an agency, it’s very easy to collect things and do many, many things. And I think once a year almost, you need to have a look at all the things you’re doing and go: what is actually working here and what isn’t?

Adam: And I think we’re getting closer and closer to a model, which, underpinned by the podcast, has lots of  content and kind of the flywheel of various different topics that we can talk about. But I just want to make sure that the ones that we are focusing on are the ones that are actually going to move the needle of the business.

Adam: So I think there’s some things I need to have a look at and stop there. Do you wanna do stop before I continue?

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: So my background is more qualitatively driven. I think it’s really interesting. Everyone has their own algorithm on LinkedIn and you see the responses that people have to whatever’s going on in the year, and I saw a lot of comments about AI and the issues with AI in a  more qual driven perspective.

Laura: And I think it came from a really good place, but I think that defensiveness is not helpful. It’s a bit like saying, we have a really, really good candle, so we don’t need electricity. It’s like, no, we need to start working with these things. We need to understand the capability and to see what it can do to augment our capabilities and then there will be bits where we absolutely need to be more human and we now need to just adopt an  adaptive, rather than defensive strategy. And I think maybe I had to go on a bit of a journey with that because your initial instinct is: this isn’t good enough,

Laura: This isn’t quite what I want it to be. But it is here and it is gonna learn and grow so much faster than you. So just having a more open and less defensive philosophy I think, around things like AI.

Adam: Just building on that point. I think the fear is, when something changes that it’s all gonna change all at once and you’re gonna be irrelevant overnight.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: And actually that’s not true. Like these things take a long time, maybe quicker with AI. It’s coming quite quickly, but they take time to fully filter through and to go through and work out where it’s adding value, where it isn’t.

Adam: And I think you just need to be one of those people that’s working out those things. Rather than one of the people on the sidelines, kind of complaining about it. I think if you lean into it, you are gonna find the bits that you can bring and the bits that it can bring, and together, you’ll be a better version.

Adam:. I mean, in the long run, who knows what’s gonna happen, but I think in the short term, I think absolutely. It’s about leaning in.

Izzie: Yeah. Makes sense. Anything else from your side on the start or even the continue?

Laura: Yeah, I think continue being open-minded. And start doing Peloton again because I’ve really dropped off that

Izzie: Well come spin with me.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Deal.

Adam: I miss our weekly chat about the Peloton.

Laura: It’s definitely turned into a weekly event, which is unfortunate. Very unfortunate.

Izzie: Okay, so I wanna now think a little bit more about the future 2026 and Adam, I’ve got a bit of a question for you, if that’s all right?

Izzie:-. Thinking more just about the agency models that we have, what do you think the future of the agency model is gonna look like? Obviously with that ambition to sustain growth, continue having that advantaged offering.

Adam: I’m gonna caveat this answer a bit. So first of all, The Forge has done a lot of thinking about this in the last six, 12 months.

Adam: I think we can only really speak for the specific agency type that we are. I wouldn’t be able to comment what’s gonna happen in media or creative agencies or all the other millions of agencies out there. So if we define our agency as being an insight-led consumer strategy business that also does innovation.

Adam: So thinking about insight, innovation, strategy, I think where we sit further upstream, I think clients are going to increasingly … because creating content is much quicker now, and creating stuff to share is much quicker. It means the time that you save there, you can spend on the embedding, the creating impact, the driving change.

Adam: I think all projects are gonna eventually be viewed as behavior change exercises, rather than strategic deliverables that exist in a PowerPoint.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: So I think that’s the journey that we are on as a business, is to think about where AI is helping to optimise our workflows – it’s what can we do with the time that is released to create a much bigger impact for our clients.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: And that’s the direction of travel. I think we’re gonna see.

Laura: You’re right. I think a lot of brands are asking really quite existential questions of themselves at the mument. Like, does marketing drive growth? All these assumptions are now being put on the table.

Laura: The things that were a given are now not there. And that’s really exciting for us in terms of what does that partnership look like? How can we actually really collaborate with you without going into the, well, this is the process and this is what’s always worked? And it’s about being good at the process.

Laura: It’s really about identifying those big questions and finding new ways in.

Izzie: And I guess then Laura, thinking about. The people on the receiving end of all of this thinking and content and strategic ideas. Do you have a perspective on what you think some of the winning ingredients will be that will help persuade people in 2026?

Laura: I think it’s actually gonna be quite easy to have an acceptable level of good.

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: From everywhere. And so really it’s about what makes things exceptional. And that’s a challenge for all of us. And I think if you  say, well, look, the playing field’s been leveled and actually the access to data and the ability to create something that’s good enough is there, then we really need to interrogate in that  pre-work, during the work and after the work. What is our role in really augmenting that? I think from a consultancy point of view, it is having a really deep understanding of our clients’ businesses

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: And what they are trying to achieve within the project, but also within the wider context of growth.  How does that contribute to the overall growth?

Laura: And frankly, even things like the personal element, where are the pain points? Why might someone not agree with that? What can we understand to help deliver a process that gets everybody in a direction that we think is in the best interest of the business.

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: I do think there’s also a build though to the work itself.

Laura: I had a great experience working with Joe who heads up our analytics this year. And he does a huge amount of quant data, and the elegance of some of the questions that he was asking in our quant and the way it  complimented some of our strategic hypotheses was really great.

Laura: And I think that’s just also something to bear in mind is it’s not like we’re just gonna set things free and go right now, let’s just go and automate it and we’ll just blindly accept what comes back.

Laura: I think we really need to be interrogating, steering things as they come through, making sure that we are not just going, oh, it’s so overwhelming and there’s so much, there’s so much data from quant, from big data, from AI, that we just blindly accept. That we really constantly pressure-test and evaluate it. And then of course, I think whatever we do to land things has to be exceptional as well.

Laura: And that is about storytelling. I mean, I would say that, wouldn’t I? But it is that…

Adam: It’s about podcasting actually.

Laura: It’s about people with English degrees. It is about trying to find a way to capture imagination.

Laura: And to capture a sense of excitement. And that is really where it’s art and science, isn’t it?

Laura: Because you have to be data-backed. That’s an absolute given. You know that more than anyone with Pepsi. But if you don’t have that human element, if it doesn’t feel true, then it’s just an exercise in filling in various boxes and people will just do it and then they’ll put it on a shelf and it won’t lead to any change.

Laura: When people really feel something in their bones and they get it. I feel like I see that example everywhere now. Like, now someone’s pointed that out to me. I heard my mum talking about it. That’s when  that something is really getting traction and there’s actually that genuine excitement about what it might mean.

Laura: Not just for your category, but actually just beyond your category and in the world in general. And I think there are so many tools now. I don’t think we’re gonna see that many PowerPoint decks that are finite solutions. It’s gonna be workshopping things. It’s gonna be creating bespoke solutions, it’s gonna be videos, it’s gonna be… whatever way we can keep partnering, keep building that learning, and that excitement through a business.

Izzie: And I know that we’ve spoken a little bit already about AI and I know you’ve already had some wonderful guests on your podcast talking about AI and how this is an opportunity to transform the function.

Izzie: Help us do things differently and really take a step back and think about what our future could look like. I’d love to get your perspective on throwing AI into the mix and how that will affect these winning ingredients that you are talking about.

Izzie: But also then, in addition to that, how we still remain close to the people that we are trying to serve and really maintaining a lot of that human-centric thinking into our work.

Adam: So we had someone come on the podcast, I’m not gonna mention their name just in case we reveal any secrets, but they were talking about how they were re-imagining the way that innovation would work in the age of AI.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: And they turned the innovation process on its head. So rather than getting to testing at the end where you test your ideas, they were testing at the very beginning. So generating AI ideas, testing them with synthetic respondents to have a starter for 10, which is probably like 60%, 70%, 80% right? Then they can use human firepower to craft and work on before putting them in front of real people. And that AI bit at the beginning, accelerating that front bit of the funnel is just … it’s a game changer it could change everything.

Izzie: Thinking then about the industry and what role strategy is gonna play within that, if you had to redesign for tomorrow and our future is in your hands. What is that gonna look like, do you think?

Adam: Well, I’m definitely keeping people just before we go any further, they will be mix.

Izzie: Okay, good.

Adam:, I think it’s some of that stuff I was saying earlier. I think clients are gonna increasingly be interested in outcomes.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: So, being able to deliver outcomes and optimising your business to be able to do that is going to be the most important. I think in the future, they’re not going to place as much emphasis or budget or time in that bit in the middle where we’re trying to come up with the answer.

Adam: They’re gonna put their emphasis on the bit at the end where you are landing it in the business and helping them to grow. So I think organisations are gonna have to find out those bits of their workflows, which can be optimised, removed, accelerated, and then work out like which bits at the end of the process can be delivered.

Adam: I think also … you know, strategy is one of those wooly words.

Izzie: Yes.

Adam: So if we could change something tomorrow, it would be absolute clarity over what expectations are. What outcomes do you want? What deliverables do you need? If you’re talking about a portfolio strategy, is it the same way that we define a portfolio strategy?

Adam: If you’re asking for an innovation idea, is it the same way that we … so that’s just one of those things. I think that if we were playing room 101, we’d put loose definitions of strategy into room 101, because I think that it causes challenges in trying to get alignment and clarity.

Izzie: One of the things I love about that reflection is, I think. Across the industry, we’ll often see momentum shifting and happening around these big, really juicy words. And we’re like, yeah, let’s do more of that. Rightly so. But to your point, so often before we jump in. We need to be really clear on: what does it mean? Because if we don’t know what it means, we can’t solve for it. And I think I’ve been really fortunate with all the work that I’ve done in capability building. One of my favorite things to do is go “culture love”. It couldn’t be more behind how critical it is in the context of brand building, but what does it mean.

Laura: 100%. Yes.

Izzie: Because if we don’t know what it means, then we can’t solve for it effectively in a meaningful way. And I love that reflection in terms of. To make it work harder for us and to be really clear and intentional about the value add. Let’s be really specific about what we think it is and it can do for us.

Adam: Yeah, there’s nothing more worrying than a brief where you don’t really know what the client means in the brief and maybe it’s a new client that you’ve not worked with before, so you really don’t. And you have a very limited number of questions and interactions to really shake out what they’re looking for.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: And you’re playing … it gets down to guesswork at some point. And it’s inefficient. You know, we get to a point where we don’t fully understand what they want. We give them something that’s not quite right for them. If they don’t get the proposal that they want to put in the mix of the other proposals.

Adam: So yeah, there’s definitely some inefficiency in there which the strategy industry could look to fix.

Izzie: Yeah. Okay. So then thinking about a lot of the  phenomenal work that you are seeing coming out of the industry more generally, and obviously you are able to get so close to seeing some of the different approaches, processes, or even practices that different clients are adopting.

Izzie: Is there anything that you’ve witnessed in particular that you would say that is absolutely pivotal for clients to be investing behind in 2026?

Adam: We are increasingly seeing clients come to us and asking the actual questions we think they should be asking. In the sense of like, where and what are we gonna be tomorrow?

Adam: How are we going to grow? What is the future of this category? How do we play a part in the future of this category? I just think those are the questions that are so important right now when you look at the way that FMCG businesses, other businesses in the economy, are performing. And I think the more of those questions that can be shaken out of our clients and answered, the better. Because I think we’re starting to make some real headway about actually creating growth.

Izzie: And I guess sometimes part of the value that agencies like yourself bring is actually helping to define what those questions even are.

Adam: Yes.

Izzie: So it’s not just about receiving the brief and then doing all of the incredible, sparkly magic that you do, but it’s also going: let’s actually help build what the question is.

Laura: And sometimes that will emerge during the course of a project.

Laura: I think a mark of a really great relationship with a client, and of course I would say a very good client is being open to. Actually, let’s redefine the question.

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: And there have been several projects this year where we’ve started on something and said, I know you are asking us to solve for this thing, but actually the problem is bigger.

Laura: Of course we can still answer that question, but it would be missing a huge portion, and it wouldn’t be very future-proof, unless we answered this broader question as well.

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: I think just being able to have that conversation and, as we said, not just be so fixed on: ‘no, I asked you this and therefore you need to solve for this’. But actually, like, the question is growth. How do we look at that broader context and answer for that? Is really critical.

Izzie: But I think that is also such great testament to, when working on projects, constantly keeping an open mind

Izzie: Versus being quite closed off to what other eventualities the learnings might take you to. Bearing in mind, we’re trying to answer really difficult, challenging questions, therefore you have to then be open-minded to say, we had no idea that this is where we would get to.

Laura: Yeah.

Izzie: But we are here and we’ve learned this, so what are we now gonna do differently? And I think that makes it really exciting.

Laura: Yeah.

Adam: And a lot of that is the bit before the work. Where you are setting the expectations. What is the question we’re really answering? Is that the right question?

Adam: Should we go internally and ask a few people whether they need something from this exercise as well?

Adam: Have we been given the headspace, the freedom, the psychological safety to ask the big questions? Have we got a senior sponsor? All of that stuff I think is absolutely critical to a successful project.

Adam: And when you have a great partnership with a client and you’ve been working with them for many years, you get there.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: But accelerating that at the beginning when you’re starting a new relationship is the difficult bit.

Izzie: Obviously, as we’ve mentioned, this is all about partnership together and working on these big challenges together.

Izzie:, And obviously that’s all then about how we get the best out of each other.

Laura: Yeah.

Izzie: Is there anything else that you have particularly enjoyed about working with any of your clients that helps turn these relationships into partnerships, not just transactional, that we can hear anything more about?

Laura: For me, it’s the context piece. And obviously, it depends on the strength and duration of your relationship, but the more you can understand of – this question sits within this context, or because the business is going through this, or this is a question, it’s particularly important because of X.

Izzie: Yeah.

Laura: It just helps us shape a personalised solution that is so much better. I think conversely, if you ever get introduced as a vendor,  where you send a supplier and you are just gonna answer that question. But I just think these days, people’s investment is precious and really it deserves a bit more than that transactional: well, you asked for this, so I gave you this. I think it needs that human touch to be a bit more augmented.

Izzie: Probably, arguably the most important question I might be asking today, and I have no doubt the listeners are on the edge of their seats for this one. But we’re starting the new year and so I guess on a personal note, any New Year’s resolutions that you can share.

Laura: I did pretty well with Peloton in the first six months of the year.

Izzie: I knew it was gonna be about Peloton.

Laura: So I’m really hoping I can quite literally wipe the dust off it because it is quite dusty at the mument., and get back in the saddle. And I guess personally just a reminder to myself to not get locked down when things feel difficult and go: right. I’ve got a literal answer to this question. And I’m totally in control of it. I think that’s gonna be something that I actively have to think about, and I think perhaps a lot of us are gonna have to actively go: no, stay open, stay curious about it. Keep exploring, keep learning, rather than going: these are my tools. These are what make me feel safe.

Izzie: But recognising those vulnerabilities and challenging ourselves. That’s just what’s gonna make us better. And it’s hard because we’re human.

Izzie: How about yourself?

Adam: I think it’s gonna be all about systematically going through what we are doing in marketing and creating an AI-powered marketing function.

Izzie: Yeah.

Adam: Not just for the benefits of The Forge, I think it’s a transferable skill that will take me to all sorts of directions in my life.

Adam: If you’re able to  bring the two together and create effective marketing. That would be my New Year’s resolution.

Izzie: I just wanted to say it’s been a total honor to be on your wonderful podcast. A huge fan myself, but also to be able to have the time just to sit here and talk about some of these really interesting questions and get your reflections and thoughts on it.

Izzie: Really appreciate your time and thank you so much for such a wonderful and enjoyable conversation.

Laura: Izzie, you are one of our most curious, interested, and interesting clients and it’s such a pleasure to be  talking about our profession with someone that is so personally interesting and so invested in their job. So thank you very much.

Adam: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It’s been brilliant.

Laura: We hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did. If you did, we think you’ll really enjoy Stephen White of Diageo talking about brand transformation.

Laura: What  principles do you have in mind for how you take on those  transformations?

Steve: I was always fond of sticky points of view., and what I mean by that is, having an outcome in mind that you’re trying to shape to potentially a solution to that outcome, but inviting others to build it with you. And the reason I talk about sticky is, if you just go with the wind, then people don’t believe that you believe in it. Whereas if you’ve got a confident point of view around where it is you’re trying to shape. You invite others in to participate and shape that with you, and then you move with them, but at the right pace, then actually it feels like you’re owning the journey together and you co-opt them into solving it and it becomes part of their story.